Mark Labberton:
I am so glad today to be able to welcome two scholars and friends. Both of them serve on the faculty at Baylor University. Stephen Newby, who holds the Lev H. Prichard III Endowed Chair in the Study of Black Worship and is a professor of music and serves as an ambassador of the Black Gospel Music Preservation at Baylor University. As well as Robert F. Darden, who’s the Emeritus professor of Journalism at Baylor University, the founder of the Black Gospel Music Preservation Project at Baylor, and for years was the gospel music editor for Billboard Magazine. Welcome Stephen and Robert. We’re so glad to have you on Conversing today.
Robert Darden:
Delighted to be here.
Stephen Newby:
It is great to be here.
Mark Labberton:
I have had so much fun reading your book and I’m eager to jump right into your love of Andraé Crouch, his music and his influence. And I wanted to start with your own personal stories a bit. So how did this project that you shared begin? Where did your first, as it were, encounter and/or love of Andraé Crouch really get born?
Stephen Newby:
Well, I grew up in a missionary Baptist home. My father was a pastor. And I heard the music in my home. I remember, and I recall as a youngster, “Oh, my goodness. This isn’t gospel. This is jazz. This is pop. But wait a minute, it is gospel. They’re singing about Jesus.” And it was a joy because when I was younger, we didn’t play too much music that was outside of the gospel music realm. So as a youngster when I heard this music and my dad and mom approved it and… I was in heaven. I was a musician in heaven listening to the songs. And it inspired me as a composer. So I came to know of Andraé Crouch when I was about eight or nine years old.
Mark Labberton:
Wow. What about you, Robert?
Robert Darden:
I grew up in the United States Air Force, which was integrated with its founding. So my neighbors on either side most of my life were African American. And as we would go in and out of each other’s houses as kids, we would go into my parents’ house and they would be playing Perry Como and show tunes and Mantovani and a 1001 strings. Then a few minutes later, we had all thundered through my friend’s house and they would be playing the Mighty Clouds of Joy or the Sensational Nightingales. And I wasn’t the brightest of kids, but boy, I knew that.
My father got promoted to captain in 1960. So I’m about six years old. And with the extra money from his big promotion, went out and bought our first Hi-Fi player and bought three LPs. And one of them was Mahalia’s Christmas album. And my sister just told me in the last year her earliest memory of me, and I’m deaf in my right ear, I was born deaf, but having my good left ear up against those little rinky-tinky speakers listening to Mahalia’s voice. And Mary, my wife, says, I spent the last… What is that, Stephen? I can’t do the math. 66 years trying to replicate the thrill of that voice.
I was aware of Andraé Crouch through the Jesus music. But it wasn’t until I heard him in the spring of 1973 at Baylor University in Waco Hall sitting in the second balcony, that he became my favourite gospel artist. And remained that way for decades and decades, even after I became gospel music editor at Billboard Magazine. One of my very first interviews was with Andraé. So like Stephen, it’s been a pretty much lifelong, I was going to say struggle, but that’s about the book. A lifelong journey.
Mark Labberton:
Well, I’m very eager to get into some of the details of Andraé Crouch’s life. But let’s first just pause a bit and have one of you or both of you comment on why are we having a book about Andraé Crouch and why does all this matter? Just give us an introductory flavor for those who need to be reminded or acquainted.
Stephen Newby:
Well, Bob and I were… We’re college profs.
Mark Labberton:
Both at Baylor.
Stephen Newby:
Yeah. We both recognized that many of the young people sing this music. They know of it. It’s in the canon. But they didn’t know who the composer was. They couldn’t articulate, “Oh, this is Andraé Crouch.” They would sing The Blood Will Never Lose its Power, or this arrangement here or this song, or Tell Them, or Through It All. But they didn’t know the composer. And Robert and I knew. Robert and I knew that it was so necessary for us to do this work so that we can pass it on to the next generation. Andraé Crouch is one of the leading African American composers in American music. He is the father of contemporary modern gospel, and it was necessary for us to do this work.
Robert Darden:
We had been friends for different gospel music conferences for several years. And at Baylor we had hosted the Pruit Symposium, which is one of the very few dedicated just to gospel music. And Stephen was one of the invited speakers. And he did his presentation on Andraé’s Just Andraé album. Which he billboarded under the provocative title of the Sergeant Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band of Gospel Music.
Mark Labberton:
That’s great.
Robert Darden:
And I was sitting next to a publisher from Penn State, Patrick Alexander, and about halfway through this thing, Stephen, I looked at Patrick and he looked at me and said, “There’s a book. There’s a book here.” Andraé died in 2015.
And I don’t think either of us at that moment realized the level of importance that passing was going to be when you’re in the middle of something. But very shortly thereafter, we began talking, what would it look like? There has never been a biography of Andraé of any size. There’s never been serious research. And we said, “What could each of us bring to the table?” Well, Stephen, as you know, is a composer from symphonies to gospel songs. He’s a pianist, he’s a singer. He can do just about anything. And he has a seminary degree.
Where on my side, my previous works of gospel have been straight ahead history. I wanted to know who, what, where, when, and why. I did People Get Ready!: A New History of Gospel Music, and two books on the music of the Civil Rights movement. But as I got closer to retirement, I wanted to go out with something that I was passionate about. And when Stephen and I came to this kind of understanding, we’d both do every interview together, but we would look at each one from two different lenses. And once we kind of got that concept in mind, then it was like, we couldn’t wait to dig into it.
Mark Labberton:
Well, I have to say that one of the things about the book that’s so impressive is its thoroughness. And it can be read in all kinds of different levels. There’s the narrative of the story of Andraé Crouch, which of course included in itself, has amazing elements that some of which I hope we can touch on. Then there’s the actual music itself and the development of the musical sound and the work and creativity of Andraé Crouch. Which you approach both narratively and then also in a song-by-song, album-by-album analysis, which is very impressive and gets much more into the musical detail of how it is that various musical decisions were made in order to accomplish a certain sort of impact and overall influence. And then there’s the wider narrative of the impact of the movement of Andraé Crouch & The Disciples. And the way that movement left such an imprint, sociologically, religiously, musically, et cetera.
It’s just really quite a remarkable window. And even though I have a great love of music, I wouldn’t pretend to know it at the depth and levels that you’re describing in your book, but I read all of them with great detail and including a lot of the footnotes because I just thought it was really quite a work that you’ve given great care to. And for justifiable reasons. So I’m just really delighted. I hope many of our listeners will have a chance to read the book and experience it themselves. I read mine, copy, with the book in one hand and my phone in the other so that I could cue up all of the various songs and albums and other things that you refer to. So that as I was reading the chapter, I could also absorb the sound itself. So tell us a little bit about the framework of Andraé’s life. How did this whole musical reality unfold for him? And then we’re going to get into the music itself.
Stephen Newby:
Oh, the West Coast was the place for Andraé to be. He would not have been able to do the types of things musically had he not been out there in that space. You’ve got the Viennese School, Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern. You’ve got Copland, Bernstein. And then you’ve got James Cleveland and the Hawkins and Crouch. And so there’s this school of music that came… The wave came out of the West Coast. He was inspired by a multi-ethnic sensibility. He was with Filipinos, Blacks and whites, Hispanics. And all that gave rise to his inclinations of his intuitions. Film scoring comes out of the West Coast. You have Motown that gave rise in the ’70s out of the West Coast. So he was very privy and he had access to a lot of different styles of music at his disposal. And it was in his youth though that his father allowed him to listen to some of this music.
He said, “Andraé, have you heard of this? Do you think you could play that? Andraé, have you heard of this music? Do you think you could play that?” The Church and God and Christ gave Andraé Crouch the opportunity to be curious and to explore because he was so evangelical in his thinking. He wanted everyone to be saved. He wanted every soul to be saved. Where did he get that from? He got that from his dad. They were just not around people that were in the church. They were around people in the marketplace. He had a cleaners business, dry-cleaning business. And so they were out in the field with the people and they had regular conversations. So he was writing, he was being influenced by the handwriting on the wall and the lingua franca on the people.
Mark Labberton:
It sounds like COGIC is a really big piece of the story, and you make that clear in the book, but not everyone necessarily knows COGIC, the Church of God in Christ. Just give us the framework of why that was such a perfect context for him.
Robert Darden:
From its founding of the new Pentecostal music forms that came out of the Azusa Street, it wanted to use every avenue open to it to spread the word. And Stephen and I also believe that freedom came in part because of Mason and Memphis and that the many of the early members of the church came literally right off Beale Street. Where they were hearing all these musics. And so in those earliest COGIC churches, they are using guitars, they’re using trombones, they’re using single drums. They add whatever it takes to make this message clear. And that continues.
Secondly, the COGIC had an extraordinary evangelical message through music. And so many of the great musicians that come into gospel music come directly out of these, particularly female, evangelists, who start with Rosetta Tharpe and Arizona Dranes and continue right into the 1970s. Who are paid to go on the road, use great music to draw crowds to the primarily male speakers.
And it’s a wonderful proving ground. So whether you’re talking Mattie Moss Clark up in Detroit, or whether you’re talking The O’Neill Twins, or you’re talking… On and on. And thirdly, and this is something I’ve only been writing about recently, so Stephen jump in, what Memphis gave the COGICs and what gave gospel music was the Holy Ghost. Gospel music coming out of the Baptist tradition, the Mahalia Jackson chorus, verse, chorus, verse, maybe a little vamp at the end, but when you get to the Memphis COGIC, that vamp becomes just as important as the actual song itself.
You’re giving yourself over wholly to the Holy Spirit. So it becomes a call back to Africa. Beat and voice and the Holy Spirit. And it sweeps the country in the 1950s. You couldn’t have had that without COGIC. And Andraé is in the one place in America where Black and white are able to do this. And what I love about what Stephen says is, Andraé’s first audiences were almost primarily all white. Because the Foursquare churches and Audrey Mieir and all of the wonderful folks who were letting Black and white come together when nobody else was doing it in the American Evangelical Church, it’s happening down there. So because white people are supporting him early, he feels more free to try to follow something other than the admittedly wonderful traditional gospel of Mahalia Jackson and Sam Cooke.
But he also feels that he has to, and is empowered, to take it on. Which includes, for the first time, personal experience, personal loss. It’s not just John 3:16, it’s John 3:16 filtered through my loss. God help me. And that shows up in Andraé very early.
Mark Labberton:
So one of the things that’s a deep feature in light of everything you’ve just said is something that comes through the book loud and clear, and that is just his innate God-given genius at music. So I want to ask a broad question and then a particular question. What is musical genius?
Stephen Newby:
I think musical genius is this… Is where observation, curiosity, imagination, and humility are baked in the oven and produces this thing. I say humility because I think there’s always this sense with musical genius that the author or the creator is aware that there is a bigger wise creator that’s giving me what I need to do in order to put this out there. And they’re really smart people, smart musicians, but if you don’t know how to say something profoundly in a simple way, that isn’t genius. Crouch could say something deep and profoundly. Genius artists do that. They can say something in a very simple way and it’s understood. There’s no misunderstanding whatsoever and the population gets it.
Robert Darden:
I’d like just to add, Steve’s very eloquent, he calls it Mozartian in the book.
Mark Labberton:
Yeah, I was just about to use that phrase.
Stephen Newby:
And Ellingtonish. It’s this combination of Mozartian and Ellingtonish. Go ahead, Bob.
Robert Darden:
And people had asked that same question of them. And the answer is, some Christians, some not-Christians, some… That it’s in the ether. And that somehow the great ones enable it to come through them. And Mozart never could explain why a Mozart appears or an Ellington. Or Andraé appears. We all stand on the shoulders of giants.
But in this one particular 1940s to 1960s Southern California that gave Andraé the empower to do all of that, then he himself was humble enough, as Steve said, to let it come through and touch us all, 50, a 100 years later. I believe it’s the Holy Spirit. But that doesn’t… Other people from other traditions have other answers for it. And you feel sometimes in other artists, in my opinion, in the vamp, in that closing thing, when they’re in the middle of worship and they’re not knowing really what they’re playing and the spirit’s moving and there are moments of Mozartian, Andraé-style improv. But if you sit, “I’m going to write a song and I’m going to write these chords and it’s going to praise Jesus and it’s going to be a praise and worship song. And, oh, it’s got too many chords and too many words.” I think that must be the hardest way to do it. And Andraé was open to the other one.
Mark Labberton:
Well, let’s give people a reminder in the case of those who have known his music but may or may not have known it was Andraé’s music. And to people who may not know Andraé’s music, a taste of what we’re really actually talking about. So we have four pieces of music that we’re going to hear excerpts from, and I’d like one of you to introduce each piece and then we’ll have a chance to maybe understand a bit about it before we then hear it.
Stephen Newby:
I think we’ll start with Jesus is the Answer. This excerpt live from Carnegie Hall, it begins in our hearing, they’re singing Hallelujah, so they’re worshiping. And then Andraé says this phrase. He says, “The reason I say that…” Then he goes into Jesus is the Answer. So it feels spontaneous. It was composed, but it was also composed… He and his twin sister, Sandra. And this excerpt that we’re going to hear, it leans into this idea of, “Oh, is this early multi-ethnic worship and praise, is this the beginning of the worship and praise movement?” It’s a very important song. So if anyone ever has a question about how do we get through life, “Well, Andraé and Sandra Crotts say, Jesus is the answer.”
Jesus.
Say it again, Jesus.
Jesus.
There’s power in the name of.
Jesus.
There’s healing in the name of.
Jesus.
There’s salvation in the name of.
Jesus.
The Bible says that demons shiver at the sound of that name. Jesus.
Must we say it
That’s the reason I say that.
Jesus is the answer for the world today.
Above him there’s no other, because Jesus Is The Way.
Jesus is the answer for the world today.
Above him there’s no other, because Jesus is the way.
Sing along with us.
Jesus is the answer for the world today.
For The World today.
Above him there’s no other.
Above him there’s no other.
But Jesus is the way.
Jesus is the way.
Robert Darden:
I think one of the things that Stephen and I assert in the book, that we’ve gotten a lot of comments on, both positive and the other kind, is that we are pretty clear that this little snippet of Hallelujah and Jesus is the Answer, is the first recognizable, identifiable, praise and worship song in the style that will become popular today. I went and heard a lot of other contenders, but if you use the criteria that Hosanna records and others later would lay down, Maranatha!, this is it.
It is both improvisational and it has those two verses that are composed. But the rest of it, he is singing on stage in front of a whole bunch of white people and letting the spirit go through. It is holy praise and worship. And whereas Jesus is the Answer is got a recognizable song form too, it is really built around that improv. It would be like a Miles Davis solo. From this he has created a message that he feels important at that moment because all of his live albums, the band had no idea what was next.
Stephen Newby:
Of what he was going to…
Robert Darden:
From one night to the next. Even in recording sessions later live in London, they would be on their toes. And if you remember the Live In London album, it’s full of old hymns. Some of which they had never played together on. But Andraé felt that call and the leading of the spirit. And as Stephen so astutely points out repeatedly, Andraé was a master of reading the room. Not just ethnic content, but-
Mark Labberton:
Right, it’s a big theme.
Robert Darden:
…but religious background and what they needed. And apparently on this night in New York City, Andraé felt this was the message they had to have. Now, the fact that it turned out to be a monster hit and secular artists like Paul Simon record it later tells me he was on the right track.
Stephen Newby:
Andraé was always tracking with what was going on in the room, and he was always tracking what was going on in his heart. He understood the cues, clues, and the codes of what God was doing. So he has this incredible relationship, musical relationship with Tremaine Davis. And he says to himself, “Oh, boy. This is a match made in heaven. And we’re going to do this.” And for me personally, Bob knows this, we’ve had hours and hours of conversation about this relationship and what would have been… What would gospel music… What would it sound like if Andraé Crouch and Tremaine Davis actually were a couple. And it didn’t happen. Andraé was devastated. And people will find out, they’ll read, they’ll read this in the book. So Andraé was paying attention to the codes and the cues in his heart, and he was devastated. Bob, wasn’t he devastated?
Robert Darden:
He goes into a depression where he cancels the recording session at great expense. He cancels an upcoming tour at great expense. He retreats to his bedroom. And the people that were with him at the time, Billy Thedford and Sherman Andrus and others that we interviewed said-
Stephen Newby:
Perry.
Robert Darden:
Perry Morgan. His life was over. And in fact, he never marries. This was the great love of his life. Has the ring in his pocket when she walks out. And he begins coming out of it with just little snippets of words, little piece of a melody. And it takes him a long time to compose through it all. And it’s too hot. It’s too raw for him to put on the album they’re working on. He has to wait a full year before he can . . .
Stephen Newby:
Before he can… Yeah.
Robert Darden:
Now, that’s all… You’ve heard that in pop music and country and even classical. But in gospel, this is something new.
Stephen Newby:
New. Something new.
Robert Darden:
To take that kind of pain, specific pain, and make it into a powerful gospel song with an evangelical message. And until Stephen and I knew the depth of what had happened there, that song was shallow to… It was transparent. It wasn’t as deep as it would become. And now when we hear it, we hear the catch in his voice. And why it’s there.
Stephen Newby:
We hear the pain, we hear the resolve, we hear the lament turning to praise just like a song. I’ll tell you, Bob and I, we spent quite a few hours in conversation and in community really trying to figure out how we’re going to write about this particular song, about this section, this season in Andraé’s life. So the piece, Through It All. Let’s listen to Through It All.I’ve been to a lot of places.
And I’ve seen millions of faces.
But there were times that I felt so all alone.
But in my lonely hours.
Yes, those precious lonely hours.
Jesus let me know that I was his own.
That’s the reason I say that.
Through it all.
Through it all.
Through it all.
Through it all.
I’ve learned to trust in Jesus.
I’ve learned to trust in Jesus.
I’ve learned to trust in God.
I’ve learned to trust in God.
Let me tell you that through it all.
Through it all.
Through it all.
Through it all.
I’ve learned to depend upon his word.
I’ve learned to depend upon his word.
So I Thank God for the mountains.
And I thank Him for the valleys.
And I thank Him for the storms he brought me through.
For if I’d never had a problem…
Mark Labberton:
It’s really an amazing song, and especially with the understanding of really what had formed this song in his own soul and spirit and the work that he had to do to come to a place of being able to make such an affirmation is profound. And it’s true for anyone who’s on a journey that really involves deep sorrow, loss, grief, pain. It’s a journey. And you get a flavor of that really. Thank you for contextualizing that. I mean, this album that eventually becomes Through It All, is one of the most influential albums that he produces. And this song is obviously featured in it. But where does this go? He goes through this loss, and as you said, he could have just become lost in the loss. But instead, the process that God leads him through brings him to another place and a whole set of next chapters. So take us along in this story.
Robert Darden:
Well, the success of these albums financially, to be honest, enables him to start pulling away from the very constrictive restraints of his white record label. Sweet people, but they were working for a different audience. And it was having hired-gun musicians come in and play his music with him just being the hired singer. It’s with these albums, particularly Live in Carnegie Hall, that he gets to do his solo album where he sees that he can do it himself. It’s where he meets the great completer of his genius, Bill Maxwell, the Billy Strayhorn to his Duke Ellington.
And from there, the next few albums, in our opinion, are the handful of finest albums ever released. And I’ve written about gospel music for nearly 50 years, but there’s . . . next few, three, four albums with him in control, with Bill Maxwell grounding him and surrounding him with musicians commiserate with his talent, the fullest flowering, and why we believe that if there is a Mount Rushmore of gospel music, he’s on it. He had great songs before this, but now he’s got three or four great albums. And these are the ones Steve and I found the easiest to write because everybody we interviewed, and as you may know, we did more than 200 interviews for this. Some people, 5, 6, 7, 10 times, they had everything to say. Because they’re so easy to talk about. Every song.
Stephen Newby:
Raymond Wise, when we interviewed him and Mark Kibble, they talked about Andraé’s genius of composing a melody. And one of the greatest melodies I think is found in this song, Take Me Back from the Take Me Back album. And he won awards for this album. Well, he opens up the piece with Billy Preston on the B-3 organ. The fifth Beatle. He’s making a statement to the world. And so Billy is taking this organ and he takes his fist and his palm and just grinds this big, big swell. And then it ends up on this high D flat chord.
And when Black people hear it, they’re going like, “Oh, my God. I’m going to church now. Andraé has not forgotten about us. He’s doing all this jazz stuff and all this rock stuff, but he hasn’t forgotten about the Church.” And so in this recording, Take Me Back. The melody is so simple. It’s about reconciliation, it’s about going to the altar, it’s about redemption. I don’t think he could have asked for a better rhythm section to play on this piece, really. It’s the who’s who, the A-listers in LA at the time. So let’s take a listen to this piece. Take Me Back, Andraé Crouch and Bill Maxwell’s genius on the mixing board and producing.
Robert Darden:
And drums.
Stephen Newby:
And drums. Of course,
I feel that I’m so far from you Lord.
But still I hear you calling me.
Those simple things that I once knew.
The memories are drawing me.
I must confess, Lord I’ve been blessed.
But yet my soul’s not satisfied.
Renew my faith, restore my joy.
Then dry my weeping eyes.
Oh, Lord.
Take me back.
Oh, Lord.
Take me back dear Lord.
To the place.
To the place.
Where I first received you.
Where I first received you Lord.
Take me back.
Take me back.
Take me back dear Lord.
Where I…
Mark Labberton:
It really does sweep you away. It draws you in incredibly.
Stephen Newby:
Danniebelle Hall on vocals. Oh, my goodness. And then you hear the way the piece is orchestrated. Organ, strings, glistening strings, soaring strings.
Mark Labberton:
Yes.
Stephen Newby:
And then the trumpet, saxophones, and trombones. With the horn. So you hear Earth, Wind, and Fire influence. You hear Stylistics influence. You hear a little bit of Motown. You hear a clean sound. The money that was spent just on the mixing and mastering on this record alone, most Black folks didn’t have that kind of money in time and access to the players and the resources to even polish your recording. That recording is probably one of the best recordings in its era. It’s so understated. And you hear it. You hear all the elements. You hear the sophistication of the diversity of the orchestration. The right instruments give rise at the right time. That just was not happening in gospel music with Black artists.
Robert Darden:
No, and it’s… I know other artists wanted their music to sound as good as the words. I mean, the words are straight from the Bible.
Mark Labberton:
Sure, absolutely.
Robert Darden:
But Andraé felt it was total praise that your music had to match. It had to be as inspired. So he was a bit obsessive. All right, A whole lot obsessive, I guess.
Stephen Newby:
Very. Very obsessive.
Robert Darden:
And the stories in the studio of 100 takes to get this thing that we wanted because he felt it was important. Not because he was trying to be the top of the charts, he never does, in pop music, but what it does is it creates something timeless. Something, where like Mozart, the words and the music or like the composers who would come and go on either side of him, he’s blessed with the ability, through Bill Maxwell, through the crass idea of record sales, to create perfect praise the way he’s hearing it in his head. And others are just caught up in it. Most of them were working for scale or half scale, and some told us they forgot to get paid at all. But they stayed because they knew they were worshiping God in a new and special way.
Mark Labberton:
What a remarkable change. I think that’s the thing that I am hoping we all are really hearing is that this is not just good performance, good making of music, it’s actually a transformative thing. I mean, the subtitle to the book of course is the Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. And I think that’s the thing that’s hard to recover retrospectively, but to understand it by your descriptions is really critical to an appreciation of why it has such influence. Because this just wasn’t happening otherwise. And for it to happen at this level is really so powerful. And that it’s motivated by someone whose spirit, spiritually, is as clear and as grounded and passionate and open and creative as Andraé Crouch is really quite remarkable.
Robert Darden:
He wasn’t perfect. None of us are.
Mark Labberton:
No. Of course. Yeah.
Robert Darden:
Every interview we did said the same thing. His sole focus was transforming the words of the Bible into songs that everyone could sing. He kept bad hours, didn’t sleep enough because the muse drove him day and night. He made every gig go on an extra two hours because after it was over, he had to witness to every janitor and every street person. His whole life was consumed in spreading the gospel. And eating a little bit, but mostly . . .
Stephen Newby:
Yeah. Ginger chicken.
Robert Darden:
He burned out a lot of musicians.
Stephen Newby:
Burned out.
Robert Darden:
All of whom adore him to this day. And when they found out that we loved him and were doing the book, they came to us. Whereas the family had turned down multiple chances to do his biography. But it had to be people who loved him enough to tell the story, sometimes . . . We didn’t want a hagiography. We were not trying to create something unsustainable. But he hurts. He wants to spread the gospel so bad. And it’s an itch he can’t scratch. And as we found out even into his deathbed, he was still witnessing to the people, to the glory of God. And what a great thing to say. Even when he’s in pain at the end, he can’t help himself. And it comes through in songs like this, and Soon And Very Soon, and so many others.
Mark Labberton:
Well, I think that’s where I’d like us to conclude. That’s the next song we’re going to hear. And if one of you could just describe the song a bit and take us out in this program with this particular song. When I came to the end of the book, I found myself thinking, “Now I could just reread it again and I could get so much more out of it.” And then there’s just, again, layers and layers. And I find it fascinating on many, many levels. But surely this song and the title song of the book itself has reason that it’s the title song. So tell us about that and then we’re going to finish out our podcast today. I want to say thank you to both of you for having been part of this and all that you’ve shared in your book and in this conversation. And we’re going to hear the setup and then we’re going to hear Soon And Very Soon.
Stephen Newby:
Well, one, I just want to thank you, Mark, for having us. And it’s just been a joy to work 10 years on this book with one of my best friends, Bob. And I think about how Bill Maxwell and Andraé were buddies. Two guys from two totally different worlds. And I think Bob and I, we’ve learned a lot about each other and a lot about the relationship that Andraé had with Bill Maxwell. And so this book, Soon and Very Soon, it leans into the title of this next song we’re going to hear. Soon and very soon we’re all going to see the King. And hallelujah, we’re all going to be around God’s throne. And it’s comes from this very old COGIC hymn chant. Bob, do you want to just say something about that?
Robert Darden:
We spent a lot of time trying to track this thing down, talking to musicologists. And it may have been a spiritual before that. Because as you know, there’s only 6,000 recorded spirituals, but there’s many, many more than that.
Mark Labberton:
Of course. Yeah.
Robert Darden:
And some in different parts of the country. There are indications that people in the 1920s, like Arizona Dranes are doing versions of this. And for people of the COGIC tradition, as soon as he goes into it, then they’re transported to something a whole lot older than themselves. But for Stephen and I, I think why it’s at least my favourite song, is because it’s so timeless. It’s old and it’s new. It doesn’t sound dated on the radio like some gospel songs and like some of Andraé’s songs. Not many, but some. Take Me Back and Soon And Very Soon sound great today.
Because he’s tapping into, we believe, something incredibly deep. Something from the earliest roots of Christianity, that when times are at their hardest, if this thing really was a pre-Civil War song, then times are really bad for Black people. If it is a 1920s and the Great Depression, times are really bad for Black people. And in the 1960s, which they’re coming out of, and the Civil Rights movement, all of these, what do you have to hold on? I’ve got this. Soon and very soon I’m going to see the King, people.
Soon and very soon we are going to see the King.
Soon and very soon we are going to see the King.
Soon and very soon we are going to see the King.
Hallelujah, Hallelujah, we are going to see the King.
Soon and very soon we are going to see the King.
Soon and very soon we are going to see the King.
Soon and very soon we are going to see the King.
Hallelujah, Hallelujah, we are going to see the King.
No more crying there we are going to see the King.
No more crying there we are going to see the King.
No more crying there we are going to see the King.
Hallelujah, hallelujah, we are going to see the King.
Hallelujah.
No more dying there.
No more dying there.
Because we are going to see the King.
We are going to see the King.
We’re coming from heaven they …
No more crying there…
Robert Darden:
Never gets old.
Stephen Newby:
It doesn’t. And, “We are going…” Not, “I am.” Not, “You are.” But, “We are.”
Mark Labberton:
Yes.
Stephen Newby:
And how much more important today, even in our time, how this ancient future song is so appropriate. I think we have to keep singing soon and very soon we are going to see the King.
Mark Labberton:
Amen. Thank you both.
Stephen Newby:
Let’s do it together. Let’s do it together.
Mark Labberton:
Amen. Thank you so much.
