Mark Labberton:
Since October 7th of 2023, the world has been gripped by the affairs that have been unfolding in the Middle East, in particular between Israel and Palestine. Many other nations have expressed their opinions and Lebanon has been directly involved. Syria has renewed civil war that it seems blown back into flames and the world is eager, anxious, fearful, angry, divided over these affairs. All of this is extremely complicated, and yet as a friend said to me once about apartheid, it’s not just that it’s complicated, which it is, it’s that it’s actually also very simple, that we refuse to live as Christian people. By that he was not trying to form any sort of reductionism. He was simply trying to say, are we willing to live our faith? Are we willing to live out the identity of the people of God in the context of places of great division and violence and evil?
The Middle East is fraught historically with these debates and certainly since the foundation of the nation state of Israel in 1947, there has been this ongoing anguish and understandable existential crisis that Jews have experienced both inside Israel and around the world because of the ongoing anti-Semitic hatred that seems to exist in so many places and over such a long, long period of time.
Today we have the privilege of hearing from one of the most outstanding Christian voices, a Palestinian Christian pastor, Pastor Munther Isaac, who is the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem, and he is also the dean, the academic dean of the Bethlehem Bible College and a director of the highly acclaimed and influential conference called Christ at the Checkpoint, a conference I’ve had the privilege and opportunity to speak at one time. Munther in this last year has been the voice of Christian pleading, pleading for the end to the war, pleading to the end of violence, pleading for the end to all of the militarism that has decimated parts of Israel, but also and even more profoundly, the decimation that has leveled something like 70% of all Palestinian homes in Gaza.
This kind of devastation, the loss of 45,000 lives and more in Palestine has riveted the world’s attention. And Munther has been a person who has consistently spoken out in places all around the United States and in various parts of the world trying to call for an end to the war and for a practice of Christian identity that would seek to love our neighbors as Jesus taught us in the Sermon on the Mount, including sometimes also loving our enemies.
The reason for the interview with Munther today is because of the one-year anniversary of something that occurred in their church in Bethlehem, a crèche with a small baby lying in the Palestinian rubble, seeing and understanding and looking at Christmas through the lens of that great collision between the bringer of peace, Jesus Christ, and the reality of war in the rubble. It’s also the case that Munther has a book that will be coming out in the first quarter of 2025 under the same title of Christ in the Rubble, and we’ve put that in the notes so that you can order it and have it when it comes out. In the meantime, today we have a great chance to welcome a brother in Christ who with many suffering people in the Middle East, Jew and Gentile and certainly Palestinian Christians, we welcome him. Munther, thank you so much for joining us today.
Munther Isaac:
Thank you for having me, Mark. Of course.
Mark Labberton:
As you and I have known one another for a number of years, I’ve been very close to the situation in Palestine in a lot of different voices, and I’m very honored and genuinely so grateful that in the midst of the many demands that are on your schedule that you would join our conversation today. That’s true of any of my guests I’m sure, but very few are in war zones, very few are facing the enormous challenges of Gaza and of the Middle East. And your leadership, I just want to say has to me and to so many people been tremendously important and your way of expressing what it is that’s going on and what the church in the United States in particular really needs to pay attention to, has mattered a great deal to me and to again to many other people.
I’ll say as a footnote here, I tried to listen to your service yesterday and tuned in and found it quite happily, but all of it was in Arabic from the version that I saw, so I happily listened to a fair amount of it, but since I’m not an Arabic speaker, that’s just a little footnote. It was nice to be able to see you in that setting.
We’re having this conversation on the day after the beginning of Advent in 2025. It was just yesterday that this season, which was the season a year ago in which you and your church began to become known around the world for one specific iconic reason, and that was an image of a crèche that was dubbed Christ in the Rubble. And I’d like to have this conversation today in a way on the one-year anniversary of that to reflect with you on what’s happened in this past year, but also to be very immediate in what is happening right now. So let’s first do a review of what’s unfolded and your reflections. When you look back on the moment in which you and your church created Christ in the Rubble and the meme went up around the world in so many newspapers and so many places online and what you thought and felt at the time that happened, would you have imagined that we would still be in circumstances largely as bad as they were then, if not actually worse? Or did you think by this one-year mark that perhaps things would’ve changed?
Munther Isaac:
Honestly, I thought that by Christmas of 2023, the war would have been over. That was our hope. And I remember too well because we placed it on Saturday night, the night before the first Sunday of Advent, and I have just came back literally the day before from the United States having spent three days in Washington DC meeting with policymakers in the Congress. We had a meeting even in the White House and in the State Department, and I carried with me back then a letter from all the churches in Bethlehem signed by all the priests. We all agreed we want to celebrate Christmas without war. And so I carried that letter and I presented it to the White House and they assured me that President Biden will get it and then came back and on Saturday night, we placed that crèche or manger two days ago on Saturday night. The same people who created that manger actually went to church in that night and relived the whole thing.
And what we felt back then, of course, none of us would have expected that it would still be here a year later because we decided we will keep it until the war is over and none of us expected the attention it would receive. I mean we are a small church in Bethlehem that received this global attention. And one of the people with us, [inaudible 00:08:44] said, “What comes to your mind now that we come a year later, look at it?” And we did some changes to it and she said, “I can’t believe how used we got to the idea of children being killed and that…”
We had this anger and pain when we put it last year. I can still remember it. I can still remember how much pain we felt and how much anger we felt, and sadly, we have to fight even within ourselves, we as Palestinians not to get used to the idea of yet another child or 50, 60 people killed in a bomb in Gaza. So the idea that now we have grown somehow numb and we’re fighting against this, I don’t want to accept idea or be okay or as if it’s normal that 100 people were killed today in the war in Gaza, and that’s it.
And so this is the first thing that came to mind. We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide that’s taking place in front of the whole world to see. And indeed, when all through November people were asking me, “Last year, your church was the center of attention, what do you want to do this year?” And I kept saying, “I wish I have to do nothing. I wish the war would be over by then.” And I every day wish that this is over. Can you imagine the people in Gaza, how they’re feeling right now? Can you imagine that it’s been 14 months of non-stop bombing? A bombing never stopped. Some of them were displaced 14 times, some lost as many as 20 to 30 family members.
Mark Labberton:
Wow.
Munther Isaac:
I mean, can you imagine we have friends in the church in Gaza and yesterday friend of mine, she told me that they sent her an image of something they cooked and they were celebrating. So they were happy, thanking my friend who is able to send support to the church in Gaza. They were able to cook eggplant and to meet out the good news they received on Advent that they cooked eggplant. This tells you everything. And it’s been 14 months now and we continue to plead and pray. So we’re still feeling the pain, we’re still feeling the anger and in a strange way, even more fearful of what is to come given that it seems that to the world, Palestinians are less human, this can’t continue. You don’t see serious efforts right now to stop this war.
Mark Labberton:
Munther, you had a very significant traveling ministry in the United States and elsewhere for years before this occurred, but you would never have been able to imagine how in part because of this crush scene, your name and your profile catapulted you to headlines and prominence that I think would be almost unparalleled by any public voice, especially a Christian voice from Palestine in this period of time. And you’ve made, I don’t even know how many trips to the United States over the past year to try to cast this understanding of what’s really going on, to speak with the government, to talk to churches, to talk to other gatherings of clergy and communities of Christian believers who have wanted to hear from you and understand what your perspective is. Can you take us a bit on that journey and what have been moments of encouragement that you might share, but also what have been the patterns of frustration or difficulty that you’ve just seen perhaps again and again that I think would be important for this audience, largely an American audience, to hear you summarize?
Munther Isaac:
Yeah, so I think since this war began, I’ve been to the United States at least four times, three times just to speak and one extended time for a month. And it’s different. You’re right, on a personal level, it’s been strange to have not just this recognition, but I’m really and honestly, I say this, I’m humbled by how much God has used my voice. This is one of the most rewarding things to me personally, is how many people came to me and said, “You helped us in a pastoral way get through this period. And your voice brought us comfort.” And because at the same time I heard many who said, “We left the church since October 7th. We couldn’t go to church as normal.”
And so it felt strange to hear all these conflicting testimonies and that many find… And at the same time, there was a lot of encouraging moments because the crowd of wherever I spoke, especially this August, almost everywhere I spoke, and mainly in churches, there was both Jews, Muslims, and in many cases atheists and people of no faith or Buddhist. I’ve never felt and experienced such a gathering of people from different backgrounds all united on a common cause. And I think there is truly a movement of many grassroots movements in the United States, but also we see it across the globe of people of different faiths who are united by this sense of this cannot continue, we cannot accept this in our humanity in which we are watching everything unfold in front of us and seeing paralyzed not able to stop it. And in that sense I felt encouraged because I also saw many who are committed to the cause of ending this war and bringing justice to the land.
So it’s encouraging but frustrating because it’s still not enough, yet it’s our calling to continue as people of faith to call for a change and to call for things to be different in our world, even to call for accountability. And of course I feel that my message should be first to the church because I’m a Christian minister, I don’t like to lecture other religions about how they should respond. And I feel the church could have done more. And as much as I’m encouraged by the shift in many attitudes across the United States, I still feel it’s not more. And still in comparison to the voices who continue, even today, Christian voices play the drum of war. It tells me we need to do more. And probably my biggest frustration is every time I go to the [inaudible 00:15:17] and meet politicians, not just the [inaudible 00:15:20], the State Department as well, actually more so in the State Department because it’s not as if they don’t know what’s happening and it’s not as if they don’t know whose fault it is. Believe me.
And the number of times I’ve heard diplomats and politicians, they say, “We wish we could say these things in public,” frustrates me because you can say these things in public. And by the way, this year you’ve seen how many people resigned from the United States government over these issues because they were tired. We cannot continue to pretend that what’s happening is right. So I say I be frustrated because politicians not only lack the courage to speak out but lack the integrity that they know something is wrong, but choose not to stop it because of interest, because of maybe in some cases looking at Palestinians as less equal as I had been saying.
These visits always leave me with mixed emotions. As I said, it’s encouraging to see bigger crowds come and thank me and acknowledge what’s happening. It’s encouraging to see the diversity, the shift in many attitudes, the students, as I said, the rabbis and so on. And at the same time it’s frustrating that we have not been able to translate this into anything to be happening differently, and nothing has changed. If you look at the actions and positions of the United States towards Gaza, nothing has changed, continuing with the money. I mean even when you read the reports, even when it was acknowledged and proven to the State Department that Israel is blocking food and aid from entering into Gaza, nothing made a difference. They still kept sending the money for sending more weapons. So it’s frustrating that nothing has changed.
Mark Labberton:
Munther, when people tell you that they had a certain view that they don’t feel comfortable saying in public, what does it have to do with, is it about military policy? Is it about the attitude toward Israel? Is it about the attitude toward Gaza? What are they referring to that they don’t feel free to talk about?
Munther Isaac:
That it’s actually Israel that’s blocking the ceasefire, for example, all that it’s a genocide or so on, apartheid, and I’ve heard this mainly from two sets of people. It’s church leaders who feel confined in what they can say in public, namely that it’s a genocide or diplomats because diplomats represent what their countries tell them. And they say, “We recognize what’s wrong. We recognize whose fault it is, but we can say it in public.” I hear it all the time.
Mark Labberton:
What is it… Stepping back for just a moment before we talk about the current events. When you look back on the long arc of what is felt from Israel’s point of view, I think, and of course many different opinions need to be acknowledged as Israel’s views because there are many different competing Israeli views. But when I think about their views, the part of the reason that we’re in the circumstance we are is of course because of the genocide against Jews in the Holocaust and then what feels at least on the very surface and maybe even much deeper, it feels like the quintessential irony that then this would be the community of people who are causing what you are experiencing as this genocide in Gaza and increasingly threateningly in the West Bank as well.
And so I guess I’m just curious as you acknowledge that arc, why do you think there is such hatred of Jews in Palestine? I’m not here asking exactly about the occupation and the Nakba of 1948, but I’m thinking more about the long arc of history in which Jews have been certainly historically one of the most hated populations of people that has been, I think commonly observed. It’s called anti-Semitism, but it’s much deeper than just simply anti-Semitism.
Munther Isaac:
Anti-Semitism is a European phenomenon before anything, let’s remember that and let’s acknowledge that.
Mark Labberton:
Yes.
Munther Isaac:
I’m not saying that there was no animosity in our part of the world between the different religions and tribes, but that’s a reflection of a wider phenomena of sectarian tension, but sometimes living in peace. But this kind of hatred and prejudice towards the Jews, which led to the horrors of the Holocaust, to me it stems from the idea of we’re superior, we’re better, we are entitled and blaming someone else comes from a position of righteousness and lack of humility. And certainly Jews have always been the victim of such hatred and blame. And with all of that comes all sort of conspiracy theories. When you look at someone like Martin Luther, I’m a Lutheran, so…
Mark Labberton:
It’s a good thing to look at Martin Luther from time to time. Yes.
Munther Isaac:
In his personal struggle, he was looking for a merciful God, right? This idea of a God who doesn’t punish us. And I find it always ironic that and interesting that once he found that merciful God, he was not willing to share or offer that, extend that mercy to others, whether it’s Catholics or Arabs, and then of course the Jews. And we know what he has written about the Jews. And I think this all stems from, again, it’s a position of self-righteousness and a position of we want God for ourselves. But also once you develop that, you begin looking at others as less equal and less worthy. And as I said, certainly Jews felt the horrible results of that ideology and mentality over the years. But again, I want to emphasize that this kind of attitude of supremacy and racism towards the Jews is mainly a western phenomena and over history, whether it’s through the Inquisitions or other periods when Jews were persecuted, they fled to Arab and Muslim countries.
And that’s why before Israel was created in the beginning of that 20th century, many Jews actually lived in Morocco and Iraq, in Egypt and so on. And some of course in Palestine, some continue to live in Palestine over the centuries. It’s a wake-up call. And I think the fact that the church has done a lot of self-reflection and change of theology over this is much needed and the right direction. And of course nothing can compensate the horrific massacre, the Holocaust of 6 million Jews. At the same time, we as Palestinians cannot but wonder why is it us that we are paying the price for what happened on someone else’s land? We’re paying the price of the sin that happened on someone else’s turf.
And when I say that, we see it in the attitudes of governments and churches, especially in Europe who are overwhelmed by the sense of guilt and end up turning a blind eye to obvious war crimes that are committed by Israel today. And certainly I’m very grateful today of the increasing number of Jewish voices around the world who are saying, “We, out of all people should fight this,” namely what Israel is doing in Gaza. I’m not talking about marginal or few voices here and there, but increasingly it’s an increasing number of young Jews, intellectuals, rabbis, especially in the United States today.
Mark Labberton:
So as I followed your speaking and your writing over the past year, one of the things that has been so profound to me has been your return again and again to both Old Testament and New Testament teaching of loving God and loving neighbors as opposed to entering this moment in particular through the language of enemies. And I’ve just been struck by how easy it would be to simply defer to enemy language. But you’ve chosen, it seems to me principally to use neighbor language and it changes the entry point. It changes the process of what renewal or stopping the war, change of the future might unfold if you take that lens, obviously then the enemy lens, is that a fair summary of what you’ve been saying and that both the belief that is behind it, but also the strategy of how you’ve been trying to teach and exhort people to understand?
Munther Isaac:
Honestly, I’m just following the teaching of Jesus. Over the years, I think I have developed a lot in my thinking because these discussions have always been part of our lives. What does the Bible say about the land Israel, Jewish people, the promised land and all? And ultimately ended up, out of all places in the Sermon on the Mount. To me, that’s the ethics of Jesus. The question I keep telling whenever I preach here over and over, I’ve been saying this, are we taking Jesus seriously enough? We can’t avoid that and we can’t push the ethics of Jesus aside when it comes to daily struggles. I always remind people that when Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers.” And when Jesus said, “Love your enemies.” And when Jesus said all these things about walking the extra mile, not seeking revenge.
He said all of these things in a politically charged environment. The context was not you’re fighting with your next door neighbor over your tree or your pet or any of that. The context was war, empire, occupation and an expectation of the Kingdom of God in which they thought or some people thought is about revenge from our enemies, us taking the upper hand and so on. And Jesus comes and completely introduces a different set of ethics, ideas, Kingdom ethics, especially in the Sermon on the Mount. And I have to be consistent. Here’s why. Because one of the things that troubled us immensely as Palestinian theologians, especially the younger generation, and there’s many of us that we talk all the time, is how many felt convenient to apply the just war theory on what’s happening in Gaza, rationalizing it and theologizing it. And as a friend of mine, Tony says, a Palestinian theologian, he says, “They make the killing of 16, now 17,000 children, the justice of God.”
You ask, where is the ethics of Jesus, the compassion of Jesus in the midst of this? They will just put it aside. So we cannot bypass and no matter how challenging they are. And so as someone who’s committed not just to the ethics of nonviolence that Jesus thought and creative resistance, but to the ethics of Jesus, I cannot endorse any form of violence, especially when it’s so excessive as we see right now in Gaza. It would’ve been much more convenient if it was just enemies and we seek vengeance or some people are condemned or they brought it to themselves.
And one other thing that always shocks me is when I hear from Christians the use of the… They’re using children as human shields or Hamas is using Palestinian civilians as human shields. And so I can’t but wonder, so in your ethics, it’s okay to kill 100 people to get to one militant, really? Is this how unworthy we are to you? So we cannot again bypass what Jesus was challenging us to do, even if it’s not easy at all. And it was Jesus who confirmed that loving God and loving neighbor summarizes everything. It wasn’t like I came up with this noble thing, but I think we somehow found other ways to define what it means to be a Christian.
Mark Labberton:
Yes. Munther, because of that continuity that you’ve just described so beautifully, do you feel like this year has taken you to a different place either spiritually or pastorally or does it feel like a continuity of the same teaching that’s been at the core of your ministry and witness over all these years, now just applied under great heat and demand?
Munther Isaac:
I think it’s a journey that I’ve been part of for years now. I’ve always felt receptive to what God is willing to teach. And if you have come and looked at the things I would’ve been more interested in, for example, 10 years ago, it would be the promised land, the covenant, the chosenness, how did the new read the Old Testament promises and so on. And then the comparison between the different ways, dispensational and covenant and all of that I think, none of it is relevant, none of it is relevant to anything that’s happening here today.
And then to the Sermon on the Mount, which for years then began shaping how I look at life and then pastorally. But honestly Mark, it’s the pastoral dimension. And you have to understand that I came from a theological background. I was teaching theology at the Bible college before I became a pastor. And once you deal with people and real challenges, you discover that what is, for example, the big question when the Church of Saint Porphyrius was bombed in the beginning of the war, 18 people were killed including the sister of a church member and 9 children. What do you preach the next day? What theology would bring comfort? Talk about Christ has risen, that is comfort, but what else?
Mark Labberton:
Right.
Munther Isaac:
Where is God? Why didn’t he listen to our prayers when we prayed for safety and protection? And that’s when concepts like gee, God is under the rubble, Christ is under the rubble, become more meaningful and bring this message of comfort to people, the solidarity of God with us in our pain. And I think in this war in particular, I continue to be challenged by what Jesus said in Matthew 25. If you can count how many times I’ve said this last year, Matthew 25, because the point of discussion in that teaching of Jesus, it can’t be more crucial judgment, how God judges you and I.
On what basis did God judge Munther and Mark at the end day? And there’s something, if you look at history, we’ve always discussed this question, who’s saved and who’s not? How do you get the favor of God? And we created all these theories and we debated them and we split over them as Christians. And so this is the most important question that any person could think of in terms of when I stand in front of the throne of the king, how am I [inaudible 00:31:48]? And the simplicity of Jesus is amazing. It’s a simple, there are those on the right and those on the left. It’s just this simple, come to me, I was hungry, you gave me… But at the same time, it’s so deep because I look at this passage and I say, “Are we taking it seriously enough?”
And then who are these people? Who are the ones who need clothes and water? And who are the ones who are imprisoned? I mean just the radical notion of Jesus suggesting that he is imprisoned. Why would Jesus be imprisoned? You go back. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake. So he’s clearly talking about victims of unjust structures, those who are thirsty for justice, those who are hungry because of lack of justice and because of all the evil we do to ourselves as human beings because of our greed, of our lust and our selfishness, all of the things that Jesus came to liberate us from, so that we can freely love him and love our neighbor. And again, you look at that passage and it challenges what it means even to be a Christian and then pushes you further to see the image of Jesus in every victim of injustice.
Whatever you have done to the least of these, you have done, you have done to lead this kingdom work. And I wish… And it’s these kinds of passages and scripture that in times like this should challenge us as faith leaders, as followers of Christ to respond in a responsible way.
Mark Labberton:
And that pertain both to loving whoever those may be, whether in this case Jew or Palestinian and any other circumstances as well. I think that’s part of the profundity and power of what you’ve shared because it’s such a seminal piece of Jesus’s own ministry and of his own teaching. Munther, if a year from now we were having a conversation and events have unfolded, a new American president will be inaugurated in January. There’s a whole variety of things that are actively unfolding even on this day that we are talking together. I’m just wondering what is your hope for end game of this season? First about the war and then beyond the war, about what might lie beyond it and that could bring peace?
Munther Isaac:
Yeah, I’m going to be very real, Mark. I think my hope is that by this time next year we would have survived this and that we would somehow, not just that the war is over, but that we as individuals, but as people would survive this. This is certainly the only thing that comes to mind if you ask someone in Gaza, they don’t know they will survive this war. So many have been killed already. Nothing and nowhere is safe.
And there as I said, doesn’t seem there are serious indications. I hope I’m wrong that this will end soon. So right now I really hesitate preaching hope. I am preaching hope. I mentioned, sorry to jump from one topic to the other. I mentioned that we came to look at the Christ in the Rubble again and say, do we want to do any changes? And someone suggested we need to have a sign of hope in this image. So we put a small plant from the midst of rubble because we cannot lose hope. We’re fighting to keep the hope. And I say, I hesitate to preach about hope because right now our only hope is to survive, especially as I said, if you’re in Gaza. I can’t even imagine being in their shoes, knowing that even if they survive, it’s a big if, their homes are destroyed. They estimate that 70% of the homes of 2 million people are destroyed. Can you imagine?
Mark Labberton:
70%.
Munther Isaac:
Where will they live? Honestly, the people I talk to directly are in the church and their homes are destroyed. And they say, “How long would it take Gaza to get to their homes? Will they ever reclaim those homes or those neighborhoods?” Some neighborhoods no longer looked like completely, so you don’t know what was there. So when I say the hope is to survive. I really mean this and in the full sense of the word. I look at the West Bank and I hope this war doesn’t escalate to the West Bank. I hope by this time next year there is nothing in the West Bank. So all we can do right now is empower and sustain one another.
We talk a lot about this Arabic word. It’s [foreign language 00:36:51]. [foreign language 00:36:51] means resilience, persistence or perseverance. That this is the time in which we need to hold fast. And I feel that what I can say at this time is faith helps our resilience, faith helps our [foreign language 00:37:07]. So let’s fight to keep the faith. This is all I can hope for right now. It’s really hard to think beyond that. And even as I finished the manuscript of my book Christ and the Rubble, which I hope to be published soon, I struggled to write the final chapter about… You talk when… We need to write about, so what’s the future? And all we can say is, as I said right now, we hope we survive and we hope we find a way to rebuild and reclaim our lives as they were before this war. And again, I’m speaking from a little distance from our sibling in Gaza. I can’t even imagine what they’re going through right now.
Mark Labberton:
I think one of the things that has been such a scary thing to me, in addition to the violence, the death, the destruction of property, the militancy of Israel, of the United States has been two things. One has been the fact that it’s connected to, in many cases, in many people’s minds a supposedly biblical argument about the legitimacy of this. And secondly that it’s been connected to such unstable leadership in Israel, vicious leadership and a response that is not about trying to give legitimacy or protect the legitimacy of Israel only, but about something that feels much more approximate to vengeance and retribution rather than any sense of just self-protection. And that’s led then to what feels like wanton acts of violence and destruction that really don’t have anything to do with the war per se. They just simply have to do with the opportunism of violence and militarism.
And so as a result, when I think about the future and about the people that are advocating now that there should be Israeli settlements in Gaza and that there should be opportunities for land development and a prominent military post in the heart of Gaza that it looks like potentially a long-term military post of Israel, all of that portends things that are so much a continuation of this agony and destruction and violence than any kind of settlement. And I do want to say, even if I don’t have all of those things diagnosed or seen with full clarity or knowledge, I’m not pretending to be an expert, but I am aware that all of the makings of that looks like the makings of an ongoing crisis. And I just want to say to you that from my point of view, I am one western Christian who wants to say, I see you. I see Gaza. I see the West Bank. I see the injustices that are going on, and I continue to stand with you and will stand with you because I believe so deeply in the significance of the truth that you’re speaking.
I long for Israel to find its own stability away from militancy and protectedness that doesn’t leave it existentially as it so often is expressed itself, that just being existentially ready to be destroyed at any given moment, that naturally breeds a paranoia for understandable reasons, which is uncontrollable from their point of view, but from the Palestinian point of view and the wider politics of the moment, the vulnerability of Palestinians and the cause of their own survival, your survival, your survival in particular and of your church and of so many other people is really paramount. And the theme that you’ve struck of Jesus teaching of this love of God and love of neighbor, including love of enemies, is really, it leaves me speechless really. When I’m with you and I’ve heard you speak, I often left just in silence because I feel so moved by what you’ve shared and the difficulty of seeing beyond simply the survival that you’re describing.
Munther Isaac:
Yeah, no, thank you. And it’s important to saying these things because if we don’t say them, then we… As a friend of mine once said, Lama, “We leave the task of imagination to those who are radical and to the extremists and the exclusivists.” And yes, I mean it’s honestly terrifying when you consider what Zionist leaders are saying now. It’s terrifying not just because of what they’re saying, but because they have a track record of telling us what they will do and then doing it.
You’re right, it’s a vengeance campaign. Don’t take my word, take the words of the Israeli leaders immediately after October 7th, an event which actually many point to us as a failure for their own security and an underestimation of Hamas, even bringing funds directly to Hamas. Israeli government did that. And then other than taking the responsible task and resigning for driving us into this mess, the exercise is an act of revenge and kill and destroy unaccountable. That’s the challenge. And my fear is that this is beyond paranoia because this is really about Zionism being a settler colonial ideology that always seeks to eliminate the indigenous to establish something in their place.
This has always been the intention of the Zionist movement, creating a national homeland to the Jews in Palestine. Palestine was not empty. So they always realize, and you go and look at what they said and what they’ve written in the beginning of Zionism that they need to eliminate the Palestinians, erase us. And this has been our history over the years. That’s why today there are far more Palestinians who live outside of Palestine and there are Palestinians who live in Palestine as a result of these actions and policies. And then they’re telling us that they’re about to do the same now in the West Bank, they want to push Palestinians. They’re talking about voluntary immigration, annexing more land, meaning leaving us less and less space. And all of this actually began before October 7th because we kept seeing the Israeli government shifting more and more to the right, to the extent that the nation state law few years before October 7th was so controversial back then and which stated that the right for self-determination is exclusive to the Jewish people only.
This is discrimination, this is apartheid by law. And then this current Israeli government, which came into being in January of 2023, so almost 10 months before October 7th or so, in their coalition agreement stated that Jews have an exclusive right to the land of Israel. So all of it is the land of Israel. They have exclusive right to it, so they erased us. So this was always their intention. So it’s beyond paranoia into this dream. And then to give it biblical language and for Christians to give it biblical language is what shocks me. And that’s another reason why we are terrified about what’s to come, given the people and the names we see in the new American government, administration, especially those who are involved in our part of the world, including the newly chosen ambassador to Israel, a not just fundamentalist evangelical, but a hardcore Christian Zionist who said, “There is no West Bank, there is no occupation. It’s only Judea and Samaria.”
And he clearly functions from this when he says there is no occupation. Interestingly, right now, every time I drive my kids to school, I have to go to a checkpoint that Israel installed just outside of our neighborhood. And you ask, what’s that? Am I imagining? Am I hallucinating that there’s a soldier carrying a gun and pointing at us every time we just try to go to school? He doesn’t see us. He lives in this different reality and want people in power and the tools to exercise that power and dominion say these things. It’s terrifying. It’s terrifying. And when you feel that you have a mandate from God to cleanse the land or to implement the will of God violently, my goodness.
Mark Labberton:
Munther, there’s no way of ending this conversation because the nature of what we’ve been talking about is literally unending it seems. I am grateful that it’s the start of Advent and throughout all of history, since Christ came, Advent in the church calendar has gradually rolled around to being in view again in the darkness in this part of the year, especially in the Northern Hemisphere, at least when the darkness is especially dark and the void is especially apparent. And I just consider it a gift to have had this conversation with you, to make the darkness of the center, believing that it’s in that darkness that the center that is the center of it all will bring hope and life and will guard and protect. But I don’t understand the mysteries of God’s providence in these ways. I don’t have an easy explanation. This is not a dust it with white snow and all goes away.
It’s clearly an ongoing agonizing suffering. And I am with you in it. And I want to invite listeners that are here listening to this to join and being with those who are suffering in Israel and in Palestine, and that in this Christmas season in a profound reminder that we think again about what it means, that there is a need for real light in places of real darkness, and that this is no game. Thank you for being willing to share a bit of your own story as well as the story of your people and this time, and thank you for your pastoral and spiritual and theological leadership as well. May God give you an Advent that is full of waiting, of course, but also experiences real light.
Munther Isaac:
Thank you. Thank you.
